110. How Organic Marketing is Evolving with Tanner Zoromski

In this episode of Raising Tech, host Matt Reiners welcomes Tanner Zoromski, Chief Revenue Officer and SEO Director at Pantelope, for an insightful dive into the ever-evolving world of organic marketing, search, and SEO in the age of AI. From watershed SEO updates to how large language models (LLMs) are reshaping search behaviors, Tanner explains why speed, relevance, and structured content matter more than ever. If your community is struggling to stay competitive online, this episode is your roadmap. 

Pantelope is a digital marketing consulting and strategy firm who specializes in the senior living industry. Learn more about how they help senior living communities on their website.

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Transcript

Matt Reiners: [00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of Raising Tech. Today I am joined by Tanner Zoromski the Chief Revenue Officer for Pantelope, which is a digital marketing consulting and strategy. Firm Tanner, super excited to have you on the podcast today. Little jealous of your hair. We won't let that take over this episode.

But, uh, thanks for joining me here today, 

Tanner: Matt. Excited to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to getting into it. 

Matt Reiners: Yeah. So Tanner, a place I like to start with all new guests, you know, what's your story and how did you end up to where you are today? 

Tanner: Yeah, absolutely. Got into digital right outta college. I landed at Pantelope about two years ago. From there, I, uh, initially started out as SEO director, kind of, you know, helping out with the clients, taking over the accounts, building up the [00:01:00] system of the business.

But. Since we got that in place, I've recently grown to oversee a lot of the revenue operations and just making sure that we can continue a little bit of the momentum we have behind the agency.

Matt Reiners: I love that. And, I'm sure you've seen so much like change over the years too, because.

You know, SEO is definitely one of those things I think I was first introduced to in 20 12, 20 13. We're starting our first business and uh, you know, it's one of those things you, I feel like you gotta get right, but it's always changing too. As we look at you now, right? You're wearing both the CRO hat and the organic marketing director hat. And I'm wondering like how has this dual vantage point shaped the way you see the relationship between search revenue and brand today?

Tanner: You know, I was thinking back to my kind of first boss, my initial mentor, and he said, you know, first thing we're marketers, right? We, we sell stuff through the internet and then we do it through search and other methods. And just kind of having that. Foundation is, is always what I go back to.

Um, and, and then from building on [00:02:00] that, you know, we get an SEO I've helped hundreds of clients over the past six years or so grow their organic profile and achieve their business goals. But like they say, you know, the cobbler's son doesn't have any shoes ever. Um, so, you know, kind of trying to figure out how can I take those principles and apply them to, um, a company that I'm helping build.

It is sort of the natural progression from, you know, search director into CRO. The thing that is most different is just, you know, the KPIs, whether it's getting leads, having conversations, kind of building out your network. Um, that's a new challenge that I'm always excited to kind of lean into.

But ultimately the playbook's very similar. You know, you have your goal, you work backwards from it, and you make sure that that system keeps churning things out. 

Matt Reiners: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And you know, I, it's funny, I'll go to some of these sales and marketing conferences in the senior living industry, which I know you guys do some work with, uh, senior living providers.

Um, and like SEO is still very top of mind. I feel like there's always presentations about it and kind of like best practices, right. And, uh, you know, something [00:03:00] that people are definitely, uh, helping with. And I will say early on in our first website. We had cornell.edu to backlink to us, which I've been told is, uh, very helpful for SEO.

Yes. Uh, fantastic. 

Tanner: Yeah. 

Matt Reiners: Yeah. And I'm wondering if you could like, pinpoint maybe like two or three watershed moments, um, that fundamentally changed SEO over the last like, you know, 10, 15 years. Which would you choose? And, uh, why do they matter so much? 

Tanner: Yeah. Um. I'm sure there are SEOs with, with longer track records than myself.

Um, but you know, there are definitely a couple, um, points in time that I would, uh, I would highlight as being the biggest. And as far as their impact, SEO first of all, the kind of like pandas, uh, eats updates of the, you know, tens. So basically, you know, Google really refining what signals it wants to have on a website, kind of, you know, putting down any sort of gray or black hat, SEO and just really focusing on those fundamentals around expertise, [00:04:00] authority, and trustworthiness.

So that's kind of like the, the old Google, right? Um, but then as far as a moment, that was sort of a watershed for me, um, was that my second year in digital marketing was the pandemic. Right. Um, so, you know, just seeing the influx of traffic, just rush to digital, everyone needing a website, realizing that, you know, the future is now, um, and is, was a, was a really remarkable time period because.

We would look at, you know, total visitors or search demand for different keywords and you know, you'd see things that are up like 200, 300, 400% year over year. And uh, you know, it did feel like the heyday a little bit for digital. Um, and just because that's where people were moving to. Um, and, but it totally changed the game in that I think.

Things became more competitive. The cert became a little bit more crowded with the influx of users. Um, Google was able to monetize maybe a little bit more of that traffic and we saw an increased presence in ads and it really did, you know, the behavior [00:05:00] change, the ecosystem, I think. Um. And then, you know, of course artificial intelligence and AI results, LLMs rolling out here.

Um, and of course that's happened in the very recent past, but that is forever gonna change things, I think as we enter the new, uh, the new epoch of, of organic marketing, I guess. 

Matt Reiners: Yeah, and I'll say, I think we got to about the 10 minute mark before mentioning ai. So I do think we deserve a medal, uh, or a trophy of some sort.

Um, because you know 

Tanner: Yeah, absolutely. 

Matt Reiners: Yeah. 'cause I mean ai right? It's like the busiest thing out there. And like I've even started to see how we're starting to impact things and thing, seeing things come up. And I'm wondering like with AI driven ranking signals and large scale language models, you know, first started creeping into search.

I mean, what were the early cues that really told you that, you know, this just isn't another algorithm update? 

Tanner: I think for me, um. It was the experience. I'm a, you know, I'm, I'm a very skeptical marketer, right? Like, I, [00:06:00] I am not a big shopper, and when I make purchasing events or use platforms, you know, I'm, I'm very slow to adopt.

But I think just seeing the strength of the experience, the richness of like the tool itself, um, and, and kind of understanding that. People would love to use it. It gets right to the point it isn't monetized yet. It's kind of like growth hacker marketing playbook all over again from, you know, the early two thousands for different, you know, browsers.

Um, and, but you know, I think that was kind of the main sticking point. I, myself love to use it and I figured that would be a lot of other people would be using it as well. Um. But I, I do think, you know, it's, it's obviously going to change like, um, at browsers did in past, um, where, you know, once we hit critical masses of adoption, you know, ads are gonna roll out monetization.

Of course, everyone's waiting for the data to come out from behind the walled garden, if you will. Um, so yeah, it's, it's big. 

Matt Reiners: Yeah, it, it's, I wonder if it's, um, frustrating [00:07:00] 'cause at, at times too, for some of these clients, 'cause like even like on Google, I'll use chat GPT, you know, pretty much all day, every day.

But like even Google when I search stuff, like it'll gimme that AI summary up top. Um, yeah. Which I'm, I imagine too, if you're a, or you know, a business trying to drive people to your site, uh, that can be frustrating at times if you don't want that to take place. But I, I'm wondering like, yes. Yeah, go ahead.

Tanner: Yeah, no, it's, it's funny you say that because there's a jockeying, right? Between ads and the AI reviews over what comes up first. It's like, you know, at first it was the a IO reviews rolling out. Now we have ads, you know, ahead of the AI results. So, you know, both customers and the platform are clearly navigating this at the same time.

Matt Reiners: I think we're all just kind of figuring it out every single day. Right. And yeah. And, and I'm wondering like what you're seeing from, whether it's some of your client work at OPE or just kind of in the, you know, industry or as a whole, like what's the single biggest day-to-day shift brands or companies are experiencing an [00:08:00] organic search as AI features roll out?

Like what are they thinking about, what are they prioritizing? 

Tanner: Yeah, that's a great question. Obviously it's President serp, Google's including the a IO reviews or AI mode. Um, but there's also, uh, something to be considered around who's adopting it first and what kind of businesses have to move most quickly, right?

So, um, we've seen skews in age groups for who uses the tools interchangeably, who's kind of still on Chrome, still on Bing. Right. And who's kind of moving towards the chat, GPT Perplexity, um. And Gemini tools, but um. I think once you kind of have figured out your customer base and your audience, right, that you're trying to target, um, ensuring that your fundamentals are in compliance with best practice.

You know, one tip I like to, um, communicate to people that, you know, see our mentors have told me is that, you know, HD ml's becoming more of a thing, right? Google finally got to the point where they're like, JavaScript, we got it. We can index it, right? But now this new thing has come along. And, and making sure [00:09:00] that content on websites is as structured as possible in an HTML format is like a, a core technical component for appearing in those places.

Outside of that contents, blogs are really slowing down in a big way. Um, you know, people are getting their questions answered without going to websites. Um. Which is just a part of the evolution of it. Um, and I am coaching clients on making sure that content is as time and place specific as possible.

You want to be relevant and you wanna break through the noise with something that, um, has some sort of other attachments, um, that allows it to be prioritized within those different lms. So, um, that's kind of how I'm sort of meaning as far as content goes. 

Matt Reiners: Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned the blogs. I mean, I can even speak from my own working experience.

Like I used to go to HubSpot's blog, like I looked at that as kind of the holy grail of where it came and I can't remember the last time I've gone to that just 'cause I've been working through LLMs and best practices and like, you know, looking for relevant [00:10:00] things on that. So, uh, yeah. Good, good tidbits for sure. I'm wondering if you could just share any concrete examples. You don't have to mention specifics if you don't want to. Of any brands that you think are like. Really thriving in this transition. If and if there's any others that you think are getting squeezed and if there's anything that differentiates their approaches.

Tanner: I think each brand has an opportunity to appear in these new results. I think that, um, um, you will be able to break through regardless of your industry. Some, I think will be more impacted than others, but ultimately we have the same number of people with the same number of needs. Um, and, and just trying to figure out where they're moving and, uh, how they're getting their information is gonna be the next, the next hurdle.

What I will say is speeds everything these days, just the pace of work has increased pretty dramatically. The pace of change has also increased, and I think, you know, for brands to stay competitive in these spaces, they need to move quickly and, uh, test things, break things, try to, you know, figure out what works, what doesn't, what sticks, [00:11:00] um.

And then kind of go from there. Because if we spend a lot of time waiting for things to change around us or waiting for business conditions to improve, it's just, you know, there, there are no more handouts in digital anymore. 

Matt Reiners: Yeah. No, it's, it's interesting. It makes a lot of sense too, and I think you're one of the best experts I've talked about on this stuff, Tanner.

I've just kind of been going back and forth with chat, GBT I'm like, what this actually looks like. But I guess one, one question I'm curious about because, and I've been telling people about this, like, is there a way you can coach up the LLMs. To prioritize your answers, prioritize your company. Is there anything you can do with that, or is that just still kind of we're figuring it out as we go?

Tanner: Yeah, I, I wish I had a great answer for you. I'd, I'd have to look into it. I, I think, unless, uh, I was talking to one of the engineers behind the tools, I would, uh, you know, have a better insight for you. Um, I know that a lot of great companies and, uh, marketers are trying to innovate. The tools and test out different result types.

I have yet to see conclusive data [00:12:00] that would point me towards a specific strategy just because it's also fresh. So I'd have to check in with you that on that one in a couple here. 

Matt Reiners: No, you're and you're good Tanner. And I was going off topic there 'cause I was asking for, uh, just self-serving purposes.

'cause I was like trying to find some stuff in chat GPT specific to what we're trying to do. We weren't even coming up, so I was like, what are we doing wrong? Um, yeah. 

Tanner: Yeah. I mean, we could ask chat GPT or Google Gemini, you know, if that would work. That would be a, probably something I'm probably an interesting place to check.

Matt Reiners: That's my go-to way of learning is just asking what's got, what's going on. Um, of course. And you know, I imagine many marketers are asking the question, right? Like, what's the end state here? Right? It feels like things are moving so fast, and I'm wondering like, in your view, what does a mature AI native search ecosystem look like for brands and consumers?

If you wanna look in your crystal ball and look, I don't know, three to five years out. 

Tanner: Oh, that's such a good question. We have to look at the last time there was a technology race in the search space, right? So the different [00:13:00] browsers, how they competed with each other, how there were kind of ebbs and flows and different user bases. And then eventually, of course, Google coming out on top. Um, it feels like.

The marketplaces are going to shift. Google's already kind of hinting at it. Um, for a lot of the e-comm clients I work with, you can just see that, um, a Google Serve result for an e-commerce based query just resembles an Amazon, you know, shopping page so, so closely. Um, where, you know, we're going to have more centralized places of information, that could potentially be external to websites.

It's a prediction. Um, you know, I don't necessarily have any value judgements to make about that, but, um, that certainly seems to be a direction, um, it's going. But what do you think? 

Matt Reiners: You know, it's, it's tough to say. I mean, I feel like it's so, I feel like every prediction I've ever made has been wrong.

So like, I'm hesitant to even like, make a prediction, right? Like, if I could make great predictions, I'd be like winning the [00:14:00] lottery every, every day. You know, I think. I think there's gonna be a right way and a wrong way to go about it. I think the people that embrace it and run with it and look at it as a tool and try to adopt best, best practices and listening to experts such as yourself and other people out there, right.

I do think that they're gonna be set up for success, but I do think it's gonna change. You know, I feel like every month there's something dropping in terms of like what an AI search and what it could look like. Can be, and you know, I know earlier you said like black hat, there's gonna be some black hat techniques that are coming out to do that.

I, I would definitely avoid those at all costs, but of course. What I, I always go back to is like, what are you educating the market about? Like what valuable content are you providing? Like what are you giving to the industry or to the thing, you know, whoever you're trying to help as a whole. 'cause I just, I don't know.

I believe in, uh, energy. So if you're gonna put out good energy, hopefully it'll come back to you. So, I mean, like, it's, it's tough to say. I mean, again, I wish I had a better answer for it, but I just think like, leaning into it and not. [00:15:00] Thinking it's just a fad that's gonna pass over. I, I think will help people.

That kinda, that mentality, that mantra will set up people for success. So, um, absolutely. I 

Tanner: think that's all, uh, accurate. 

Matt Reiners: Yeah. And I'm wondering too, 'cause like KPIs, right? Super important. Any business that you're running, especially in kind of like your digital footprint and as ai, like rewires search journeys, right?

Like, I'm wondering if there's any traditional SEO KPIs that remain critical. And if there's any emerging, um, metrics that CMOs or marketing leaders should start tracking today? 

Tanner: Yeah, no, absolutely. There, there are a couple, um. A couple that I would point to, um, first and foremost, kinda starting out with the AI platforms, thinking about your own rankings across brand and non-brand in different platforms, right?

So let's say you go to Gemini or chat GPT, um, do an inventory of your top five keywords across brand and non-brand to see how the results come up. See how they [00:16:00] compare and contrast with Google. And then that kind of just gives you a little bit of a framework and understanding, okay, how am I appearing in this space?

How is. The, um, LLM representing my organization. Is it accurate? Where is it getting the information from? And then kind of just working through those, you know, ranking metrics. Um, and to understand how you can influence the results is, is sort of where, where I would start. Um, from there, of course, if you get traffic on site, you get more click through rates, which I little slow, um, as people who have informational inquiries just get their question answered.

Um. You know, once you get them onsite, ga, Adobe, making sure that those platforms are configured to be as accurate as possible and the definitions for all those metrics, um, are set up. Um, but then ultimately, you know, money, right? You know, you gotta make your revenue, you gotta get your conversions. Um, and, and then working backwards from there through the items I mentioned, um, would be kind of how I think about structuring your KPIs.

Matt Reiners: Yeah, makes a lot of sense. And you know, we talked about searching through some of [00:17:00] these LLMs and kind of the accuracy and making sure it's there. I remember searching my name in chat GPTA few months ago and it said I had my MBA from Stanford, and, which is totally false, but I was like, yes, please sell that to everybody in case they ask about me.

Um, yeah, of course. Yeah, and it will definitely, you know, come with some of that. And I'm wondering too, like if a brand or a company has limited resources, you know, what would you suggest as some, you know, top three moves that they should prioritize now to stay discoverable and trustworthy in this AI augmented search engine results page?

Tanner: Yeah, I, I think the first. Thing I would recommend would just be defining your niche, right? Um, it's, it's a super similar principle to what's been rolled out for organic marketing or SEO more broadly, but, um, get really good and really specific at that topic that's most close to your KPI. If it's one specific product or service research about it, one localized [00:18:00] keyword, um, and, you know, just really own it, right?

Um, and I think. Through some articles I read or a book about, you know, Amazon, how it was a bookstore, right? And you know, from there they're launching people into space. So, you know, once you get really good at your niche, um, and and truly own it, then you're able to kind of start, you know, expanding your capture targeting similar, um, and most approximate niches and then just really kind of grow out that way horizontally.

Um, so if you have limited resources, start small. It's, it's not bad. But, um, for your at bats, make sure you hit 'em outta the park. Um, and then, you know, things will grow. 

Matt Reiners: I feel like every day there's something that we can do, right? And I feel like a lot of the times people think they have to throw a bunch of money at the wall to kind of figure this out, which I think in some cases is true.

Right? But I do think some of those things, um, you can do and just being more intentional and knowing your audience and like crafting it for that right? Like, makes a lot, a lot of sense. Um, and then my second to last question here for you, Tanner. Uh. How should companies balance AI centric search [00:19:00] tactics, right?

With some of this broader brand building efforts. So they're not just optimizing for machines, but also forming some of these genuine human connections. 

Tanner: I think about it through like the lens of Google, which has kind of just been communicating SEOs just build useful content, right?

Build things that people will click on, build something that answers the prompt. Um, I, I wouldn't optimize for AI first. I would optimize for your customer first. Um, and. And, uh, you know, just to do a lot of customer research. You know, surveys, conversions. Why did we get your business? Why didn't we get your business?

Um, and then work backwards, right? Because from there, if you appropriately message it across a number of platforms and think about, you know, how we appear horizontally, um, that's basically how I think a brand would want to try to appear as successfully as possible in different AI results. 

Matt Reiners: Yeah. I love that.

So it's, it's building for the person and the end user in mind. You know, the AI will kind of come after that, right. And uh, [00:20:00] you know, they probably just put a bunch of binary and like white fawn at the bottom of your site. Don't do that. Yeah. You know, 

Tanner: something like that. Um, cart before the horse. Yeah. 

Matt Reiners: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, and then my last question here for you, Tanner, just any other thoughts worth sharing whether on SEO marketing, digital, open-ended question here for you? 

Tanner: I, I think, I think the biggest question to be solved, um, is, is the data, right? Um, basically. Without the data, we can't measure change, we can't measure growth.

Um, and making sure that you are working with data that you trust, um, from accurate sources and then crafting a strategy around it is going to be what, you know, differentiates your strategy from someone else. So, um, always rely on the numbers. Um, they, they don't lie typically. So, um, yeah, I, I think I would just try to figure out, you know, where and when are these gonna start coming out, and then, um, go from there.

Matt Reiners: I love it. Well, Tanner, I'm so excited and so grateful that you've kind of ended on this [00:21:00] SEO uh, career path here. So thanks for dropping some knowledge here with us. I definitely learned something myself and, uh, thank you for making some time here today. 

Tanner: Of course, Matt, um, appreciate it and, uh, happy to join whatever 

I.